Sutta Pitaka
Samyutta Nikāya
Volume IV –– Saḷāyatanavaggo
Samyutta 43 –– Abyākata Saṃyutta
Chapter 1 –– Abyākata Vagga

43. 1. 1.
(1) Khemā Theri –– Theri Khema

1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anāthapṇḍika in Jeta’s grove in Sāvatthi.

2. At that time bhikkhuni Khema was touring the country of Kosala and arriving in the region of Torana between Sāvatthi and Saketa, observed the rains in Torana.

3. King Pasenadi of Kosala too going from Saketa to Sāvatthi, arrived in Torana and wanted to spend one night in Torana

4. King Pasenadi of Kosala addressed a certain man and said “Good one do you know of a suitable recluse or Brahmin in Torana whom I could associate today?”

That man offering to find a recluse or Brahmin for the king to associate for one day, wandered all over Torana and did not find one.

5. He came across bhikkhuni Khema who had observed the rains in Torana .and approaching king Pasenadia of Kosala informed the king: “Lord, I could not find a suitable recluse or Brahmin with whom your majesty could associate. Yet there is a bhikkhuni called Khema. She is a disciple of the Blessed One, worthy and rightfully enlightened. Lord, of this lady a good name has spread. She is learned and wise, is a good teacher who could explain the Teaching well. Lord you may associate her.”

6. Then king Pasenadi of Kosala approached bhikkhuni Khema, worshipped and sat on aside.

7. Sitting on a side, king pasenadi of Kosala said: “Lady, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Great king, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

8. “Lady, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Great king, it is also not declared by the Blessed One,‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

9. “Lady, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Great king, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

10. “Lady, the Thus Gone One is not after death and neither not after death ”

“Great king, it is also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not and is neither not, after death.”

11. “Lady, when it was asked, is the Thus Gone One after death, it was said, Great king, it is not declared by the Blessed One, the Thus Gone One is, after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not after death, it was said, Great king, it is also not declared by the Blessed One the Thus Gone One is not after death. When asked is the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, it was said, Great king, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not and neither not after death, it was said, great king, it was also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death. Lady, what is the reason that these, were not declared by the Blessed One?”

12. “Great king, I will cross question you on this same and you could explain as it pleases you.”

13. “Great king, do you have a mathematician or an accountant who could calculate the sand at the bottom of river Ganges, as it is this much sand, so many hundreds of sand, or so many thousands of sand or so many hundred thousands of sand?”

“No, Lady, there isn’t one who could.”

14. “Great king, do you have a mathematician or an accountant who could calculate the water in the ocean as it is this number of vessels of water, this number of hundreds of vessels of water, or this number of thousands of vessels of water or this number of hundred thousands of vessels of water?”

“No, Lady, there isn’t one who could.”

“What is the reason?”

“Lady, the great ocean is deep, immeasurable and difficult to measure!”

15. “Great king, in the same manner with whatever matter the Thus Gone One is pointed out, that matter, the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumerations of matter, just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

16. “With whatever feelings the Thus Gone One is pointed out, those feelings the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of feelings, just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

17. “With whatever perceptions the Thus Gone One is pointed out, those perceptions the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of perceptions, just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death, does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

18. “With whatever determinants the Thus Gone One is pointed out, those determinants the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of determinants just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

19. “With whatever consciousness the Thus Gone One is pointed out, that consciousness the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of consciousness just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.”

20. Then king Pasenadi of Kosala agreeing and delighting in the words of bhikkhuni Khema got up from his seat, worshipped and circumambulated bhikkhuni Khema and wwent away.

21. In the meantime king Pasenadi of Kosala approached the Blessed One worshipped and sat on aside.

22. Sitting on a side, king pasenadi of Kosala said: “Venerable sir, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Great king, it is not declared by me ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

23. “Venerable sir, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Great king, it is also not declared by me ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

24. “Venerable sir, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Great king, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

25. “Venerable sir, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death ”

“Great king, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

26. “Venerable sir, when it was asked, is the Thus Gone One after death, it was said, Great king, it is not declared by me, the Thus Gone One is, after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not after death, it was said, Great king, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death. When asked is the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, it was said, Great king, it is also not declared by me, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not and neither not after death, it was said, great king, it was also not declared by me ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death. Venerable sir, what is the reason that these, were not declared by the Blessed One?”

27. “Great king, I will cross question you on this same and you could explain as it pleases you.”

28. “Great king, do you have a mathematician or an accountant who could calculate the sand at the bottom of river Ganges, as it is this much sand, so many hundreds of sand, or so many thousands of sand or so many hundred thousands of sand?”

“No, venerable sir, there isn’t one who could.”

29. “Great king, do you have a mathematician or an accountant who could calculate the water in the ocean as it is this number of vessels of water, this number of hundreds of vessels of water, or this number of thousands of vessels of water or this number of hundred thousands of vessels of water?”

“No, venerable sir, there isn’t one who could.”

“What is the reason?”

“Venerable sir, the great ocean is deep, immeasurable and difficult to measure!”

30. “Great king, in the same manner with whatever matter the Thus Gone One is pointed out, that matter, the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of matter, just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

31. “With whatever feelings the Thus Gone One is pointed out, those feelings the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of feelings, just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

32. “With whatever perceptions the Thus Gone One is pointed out, those perceptions the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of perceptions, just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death, does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

33. “With whatever determinants the Thus Gone One is pointed out, those determinants the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of determinants just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.

34. “With whatever consciousness the Thus Gone One is pointed out, that consciousness the Thus Gone has dispelled, pulled out with the roots, made a palm stump and made not to grow in the future. Great king, the Thus Gone One, deep, immeasurable and difficult to fathom is released from the enumeration of consciousness just as the great ocean is. Therefore, the Thus Gone One is after death does not apply, is not after death does not apply, is and is not after death does not apply and the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death does not apply.”

35. “Venerable sir, it is wonderful and surprising, a female disciple of the Teacher has expressed the same meaning with the same words and phrases not deviating from the main theme.

36. “Venerable sir, at one time I approached bhikkhuni Khema and asked this same question and that lady explained the meaning with these same words and phrases that the Blessed One has explained. Venerable sir, it is wonderful and surprising, a female disciple of the Teacher has expressed the same meaning with the same words and phrases not deviating from the main theme. Venerable sir, now we have to go. There is much to be done.”

“Great king, do the fitting thing.”

37. King Pasenadi of Kosala agreeing and delighted in the words of the Blessed One, got up from his seat, worshipped and circumambulated the Blessed One and went away.

43. 1. 2.
(2) Anurāddho –– Venerable Anurāddha

1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the gabled hall in the Great Forest in Vesali.

2. At that time venerable Anurāddha was living in a forest hut not far away from the Blessed One.

3. Then many wandering ascetics of other sects approached venerable Anurāddha exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side.

4. Sitting on a side those wandering ascetics said to venerable Anurāddha: “Friend, Anurāddha, since the Thus Gone One is the foremost man, the most excellent and has attained the highest, the Thus Gone One is pointed out in these four instances ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’?”

“Friends, since the Thus Gone One is the foremost man, the most excellent and has attained the highest, the Thus Gone One is pointed out excluding him from these four instances ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’.”

When this was said the wandering ascetics of other sects said: “This monk is a novice who has gone forth recently or if he is an elder he is foolish and not learned.”

5. The wandering ascetics of other sects depreciating venerable Anurāddha as a novice and as foolish got up from their seats and went away.

6. Soon after the wandering ascetics of other sects had gone away, it occurred to venerable Anurāddha, if the wandering ascetics had questioned me further, how answering would I reply them according to the Teaching and not blame the Blessed One falsely.

7. Then venerable Anurāddha approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side.

8. Sitting on a side venerable Anurāddha said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, I was living in a forest hut not far away from the Blessed One. Then many wandering ascetics of other sects approached me exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side and said to me: “Friend, Anurāddha, since the Thus Gone One is the foremost man, the most excellent and has attained the highest, the Thus Gone One is pointed out in these four instances ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death? Venerable sir, then I said to them,

Friends, since the Thus Gone One is the foremost man, the most excellent and has attained the highest, the Thus Gone One is pointed out excluding him from these four instances ‘the Thus Gone One is after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’ Venerable sir, when I said this the wandering ascetics of other sects said, This monk is a novice who has gone forth recently or if he is an elder he is foolish and not learned. The wandering ascetics of other sects depreciating me as a novice and as foolish got up from their seats and went away.

9. Soon after the wandering ascetics of other sects had gone away, it occurred to me, if the wandering ascetics had questioned me further, how answering would I reply them according to the Teaching and not blame the Blessed One falsely.”

10. “Anurāddha, is matter permanent or impermanent?”

“It is impermanent venerable sir.”

“That which is impermanent is it unpleasant or pleasant?”

“Venerable sir, it is unpleasant.”

“That impermanent, unpleasant, changing thing is it suitable to consider it’s mine, it’s me or it’s my self”

“Venerable sir, it is not suitable.”

“Anurāddha, are feelings  re  perceptions  re  intentions  re  consciousness permanent or impermanent?”

“It is impermanent venerable sir.”

“That which is impermanent is it unpleasant or pleasant?”

“Venerable sir, it is unpleasant.”

“That impermanent, unpleasant, changing thing, is it suitable to consider it is mine, it is me or it is my self?”

“Venerable sir, it is not suitable.”

11. “Therefore Anurāddha, whatever matter in the past, that will be in the future or at present, seized or not, rough or fine, unexalted or not, far or near is not mine, is not me, is not my self; this should be seen with right wisdom as it really is. Whatever feelings  re  perceptions  intentions  re  consciousness in the past, that will be in the future or at present, seized or not, rough or fine, unexalted or not, far or near is not mine, is not me, is not my self; this should be seen with right wisdom as it really is.

12. Anurāddha, the learned noble disciple seeing it thus, turns from matter  re  turns from feelings  re  turns from perceptions  re  turns from intentions and turns from consciousness. Turning loses interest and is released. Released he knows I am released, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived to the end, duties are done, there is nothing more I could wish.

13. Anurāddha, do you reflect, the Thus Gone One is matter?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not”.

“Do you reflect, the Thus Gone One is feelings?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not”.

“Do you reflect, the Thus Gone One is perceptions?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not”

“Do you reflect, the Thus Gone One is intentions?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not”

“Do you reflect, the Thus Gone One is consciousness?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not”

14. Anurāddha, do you reflect the Thus Gone One in matter?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

“Do you reflect the Thus Gone One outside matter?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

15. Anurāddha, do you reflect the Thus Gone One in feelings?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

“Do you reflect the Thus Gone One outside feelings?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

16. Anurāddha, do you reflect the Thus Gone One in perceptions?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

“Do you reflect the Thus Gone One outside perceptions?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

17. Anurāddha, do you reflect the Thus Gone One in intentions?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

“Do you reflect the Thus Gone One outside intentions?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

18. Anurāddha, do you reflect the Thus Gone One in consciousness?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

“Do you reflect the Thus Gone One outside consciousness?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

19. “Anurāddha, do you reflect a material, feeling, perceptive, intentional and conscious Thus Gone One?.”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

20. “Anurāddha, do you reflect an immaterial, non-feeling, non-perceptive, unintentional and non-conscious Thus Gone One?”

“No, venerable sir, I do not.”

21. “Anurāddha, even here and now not gaining the Thus Gone One, in truth and reality is it suitable to explain the Thus Gone One as the foremost man, the most excellent and has attained the highest, excluding him from these four instances ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or ‘the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’?”

“No, venerable sir, it is not suitable.”

22. “Good Anurāddha! You have understood it! Even in the past and now too I point out unpleasantness and its cessation.”

43. 1. 3.
(3) Sāriputta & Koṭṭhita –– Venerables Sāriputta and Kotthita, or A Natural Condition

1. At one time venerable Sāriputta and venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita getting up from his seclusion in the evening approached venerable Sarilputta, exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side, venerable Mahākoṭṭhita said to venerable Sāriputta: “Friend, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

4. “Friend, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

5. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

6. “Friend, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death ”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

7. “Friend, when it was asked, is the Thus Gone One after death, it was said, friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One, the Thus Gone One is, after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death. When asked is the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not and neither not after death, it was said, friend, it was also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’. Friend, what is the reason that these, were not declared by the Blessed One?”

8. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’ relates to matter. ‘The Thus Gone One is not after death’ relates to matter. ‘The Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ relates to matter. ‘The Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’ relates to matter.

9. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’ relates to feelings. ‘The Thus Gone One is not after death’ relates to feelings. ‘The Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ relates to feelings. ‘The Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’ relates to feelings.

10. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’ relates to perceptions. ‘The Thus Gone One is not after death’ relates to perceptions. ‘The Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ relates to perceptions. ‘The Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’ relates to perceptions

11. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’ relates to intentions. ‘The Thus Gone One is not after death’ relates to intentions. ‘The Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ relates to intentions. ‘The Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’ relates to intentions.

12. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’ relates to consciousness. ‘The Thus Gone One is not after death’ relates to consciousness. ‘The Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ relates to consciousness. ‘The Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death’ relates to consciousness.

13. “Friend, for these reasons, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

43. 1. 4.
(4) Sāriputta & Koṭṭhita 2 –– Venerables Sāriputta and Kotthita 2, or The Arising

1. At one time venerable Sāriputta and venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita getting up from his seclusion in the evening approached venerable Sāriputta, exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side, venerable Mahākoṭṭhita said to venerable Sāriputta: “Friend, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

4. “Friend, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

5. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

6. “Friend, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death ”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

7. “Friend, when it was asked, is the Thus Gone One after death, it was said, friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One, the Thus Gone One is, after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death. When asked is the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not and neither not after death, it was said, friend, it was also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’. Friend, what is the reason that these, were not declared by the Blessed One?”

8. “Friend, not knowing and not seeing, matter, its arising, its cessation and the path to its cessation as it really is, to someone it occurs ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’.

9––11. “Friend, not knowing and not seeing, feelings,re  perceptions  re  intentions their arising, their cessation and the path to their cessation as it really is, to someone it occurs ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’.

12. “Friend, not knowing and not seeing, consciousness, its arising, its cessation and the path to its cessation as it really is, to someone it occurs ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

13. Friend, knowing and seeing, matter, its arising, its cessation and the path to its cessation as it really is, to someone it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’.

14––16. “Friend, knowing and seeing, feelings,re  perceptions  re  intentions their arising, their cessation and the path to their cessation as it really is, to someone it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’.

17. “Friend, knowing and seeing, consciousness, its arising, its cessation and the path to its cessation as it really is, to someone it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

18. “Friend, for these reasons, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

43. 1. 5.
(5) Sāriputta & Koṭṭhita 3 –– Venerables Sāriputta and Kotthita 3, or Love

1. At one time venerable Sāriputta and venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita getting up from his seclusion in the evening approached venerable Sāriputta, exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side, venerable Mahākoṭṭhita said to venerable Sāriputta: “Friend, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

4. “Friend, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

5. “Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

6. “Friend, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death ”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

7. “Friend, when it was asked, is the Thus Gone One after death, it was said, friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One, the Thus Gone One is, after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death. When asked is the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not and neither not after death, it was said, friend, it was also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’. Friend, what is the reason that these, were not declared by the Blessed One?”

8. “Friend, when greed, interest, love, thirst, wailing and craving for matter is not dispelled to someone it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’.

9––11. Friend, when greed, interest, love, thirst, wailing and craving for feelings  re perceptions  re  intentions are not dispelled to someone it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

12. Friend, when greed, interest, love, thirst, wailing and craving for consciousness is not dispelled to someone it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

13. Friend, when greed, interest, love, thirst, wailing and craving for matter is dispelled to someone it does not occur, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’.

14––16. Friend, when greed, interest, love, thirst, wailing and craving for feelings  re  perceptions  re  intentions are dispelled to someone it does not occur, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

17. Friend, when greed, interest, love, thirst, wailing and craving for consciousness is dispelled to someone it does not occur, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death.’

18. “Friend, for this reason, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

43. 1. 6.
(6) Sāriputta & Koṭṭhita 4 –– Venerables Sāriputta and Koṭṭhita 4, or Fond of

1. At one time venerable Sāriputta and venerable Mahākoṭṭhita were living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Venerable Sāriputta getting up from his seclusion in the evening approached venerable Mahākoṭṭhita, exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side, venerable Sāriputta said to venerable Mahakottitha: “Friend, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

“Friend, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

“Friend, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

“Friend, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death ”

“Friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

.”Friend, when it was asked, is the Thus Gone One after death, it was said, friend, it is not declared by the Blessed One, the Thus Gone One is, after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death. When asked is the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, it was said, friend, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death. When asked, is the Thus Gone One not and neither not after death, it was said, friend, it was also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’. Friend, what is the reason that these, were not declared by the Blessed One?”

I

4. “Friend, to someone fond of, attached to, excited about matter and does not know the cessation of matter as it really is, it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’ Friend, to someone fond of, attached to, excited about feelings  re  perceptions  re  intentions and does not know the cessation of intentions as it really is, it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’ Friend, to someone fond of, attached to, excited about consciousness and does not know the cessation of consciousness as it really is, it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

5. Friend, to someone not fond of, not attached to, not excited about matter and knows the cessation of matter as it really is, it does not occur, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’ Friend, to someone not fond of, not attached to, not excited about feelings  re  perceptions  re  intentions and knows the cessation of intentions as it really is, it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’ Friend, to someone not fond of, not attached to, not excited about consciousness and knows the cessation of consciousness as it really is, it does not occur, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

6. Friend, for this reason, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

II

7. “Friend, is there another method to show on account of which they are not declared by the Blessed One?”

“Friend, there is.”

8. “Friend, to someone fond of, attached to, excited about being and does not know the cessation of being as it really is, it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

9. “Friend, to someone not fond of, not attached to, not excited about being and knows the cessation of being as it really is, it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

10. Friend, for this reason, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

III

11. “Friend, is there another method to show on account of which they are not declared by the Blessed One?”

“Friend, there is.”

12. “Friend, to someone fond of, attached to, excited about a grip and does not know the cessation of the grip as it really is, it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

13. “Friend, to someone not fond of, not attached to, not excited about a grip and knows the cessation of the grip as it really is, it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

14. Friend, for this reason, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

IV

15. “Friend, is there another method to show on account of which they are not declared by the Blessed One?”

“Friend, there is.”

16. “Friend, to someone fond of, attached to, excited about craving and does not know the cessation of craving as it really is, it occurs, ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

17. “Friend, to someone not fond of, not attached to, not excited about craving and knows the cessation of craving as it really is, it does not occur ‘the Thus Gone One, is after death’, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’ ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’ or the Thus Gone One is not and neither not after death’

18. Friend, for this reason, they are not declared by the Blessed One.”

V

19. “Friend, is there another method to show on account of which they are not declared by the Blessed One?”

“Friend Sāriputta, that’s all. What more than the release through the destruction of craving could be expected by a monk. There is nothing more to point out.”

43. 1. 7.
(7) Moggallāna –– Venerable Mahāmoggallāna, or The Mental Faculties

1. At one time venerable Mahāmoggallāna was living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta approached venerable Mahāmoggallāna, exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta said to venerable Mahāmoggallāna: “Good Moggallāna, is the world eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is eternal’.”

4. “Good Moggallāna, is the world not eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is not eternal’.”

5. “Good Moggallāna, is the world limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is limited’.”

6. “Good Moggallāna, is the world not limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is not limited’.”

7. “Good Moggallāna, is the soul and body one?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the soul and body.is one”

8. “Good Moggallāna, is the soul one and the body another?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the soul is one and the body another’.”

9. “Good Moggallāna, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

10. “Good Moggallāna, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

11. “Good Moggallāna, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

12. “Good Moggallāna, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death? ”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

13. “Good Moggallāna, for what reason do the wandering ascetics of other sects when questioned declare the world is eternal, the world is not eternal, the world is limited, the world is not limited, the soul and body is one, the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death, the Thus Gone is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death?

14. “Good Moggallāna, for what reason does the recluse Gotama when questioned not declare the world is eternal or the world is not eternal, the world is limited or the world is not limited, the soul and the body is one or the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death or the Thus Gone is not after death or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death or the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not, after death?”

15. “Vaccha, the wandering ascetics of other sects reflect the eye is mine, I am the eye it’s my self. The ear is mine, I am the ear it’s my self. The nose is mine, I am the nose it’s my self. The tongue is mine, I am the tongue it’s my self. The body is mine, I am the body it’s my self and the mind is mine, I am the mind it’s my self.

16. “Vaccha, the Thus Gone One, worthy and rightfully enlightened does not reflect the eye is mine, I am the eye it’s my self. The ear is mine, I am the ear it’s my self. The nose is mine, I am the nose it’s my self. The tongue is mine, I am the tongue it’s my self. The body is mine, I am the body it’s my self and the mind is mine, I am the mind it’s my self.”

17. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta got up from his seat approached the Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side.

18. Sitting on a side Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: “Good Gotama, is the world eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the world is eternal’.”

19. “Good Gotama, is the world not eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me ‘the world is not eternal’.”

20. “Good Gotama, is the world limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the world is limited’.”

21. “Good Gotama, is the world not limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the world is not limited’.”

22. “Good Gotama, is the soul and body one?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the soul and body.is one”

23. “Good Gotama, is the soul one and the body another?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the soul is one and body another’.”

24. “Good Gotama, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

25. “Good Gotama, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

26. “Good Gotama, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

27. “Good Gotama, the Thus Gone One, is not and neither not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

28. “Good Gotama, for what reason do the wandering ascetics of other sects when questioned declare the world is eternal, the world is not eternal, the world is limited, the world is not limited, the soul and the body is one, the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death, the Thus Gone is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death? Good Gotama, for what reason does the recluse Gotama when questioned not declare the world is eternal or the world is not eternal, the world is limited or the world is not limited, the soul and body is one or the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death or the Thus Gone is not after death or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death or the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death?”

29. “Vaccha, the wandering ascetics of other sects reflect the eye is mine, I am the eye it’s my self. The ear is mine, I am the ear it’s my self. The nose is mine, I am the nose it’s my self. The tongue is mine, I am the tongue it’s my self. The body is mine, I am the body it’s my self and the mind is mine, I am the mind it’s my self.

30. Vaccha, the Thus Gone One, worthy and rightfully enlightened does not reflect the eye is mine, I am the eye it’s my self. The ear is mine, I am the ear it’s my self. The nose is mine, I am the nose it’s my self. The tongue is mine, I am the tongue it’s my self. The body is mine, I am the body it’s my self and the mind is mine, I am the mind it’s my self.”

31. “Good Gotama, it is surprising and wonderful how the essence, the words and even the letters of the Teacher and the disciple agree and express the same idea.

32. “Good Gotama, here I approached the recluse Mahāmoggallāna and asked this same question and the recluse Mahāmoggallāna explained the meaning with these same words and phrases as good Gotama did. Good Gotama, it is wonderful and surprising how the words phrases and even the letters of the Teacher and disciple agree not disagreeing anywhere.”

43. 1. 8.
(8) Vaccho –– The Wandering Ascetic Vaccha, or The Bonds

1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: “Good Gotama, is the world eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me ‘the world is eternal’.”

4. “Good Gotama, is the world not eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the world is not eternal’.”

5. “Good Gotama, is the world limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the world is limited’.”

6. “Good Gotama, is the world not limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the world is not limited’.”

7. “Good Gotama, is the soul and body one?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the soul and body.is one”

8. “Good Gotama, is the soul one and the body another?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the soul is one and the body another’.”

9. “Good Gotama, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

10. “Good Gotama, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

11. “Good Gotama, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

12. “Good Gotama, the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death? ”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by me, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

13. “Good Gotama, for what reason do the wandering ascetics of other sects when questioned declare the world is eternal, the world is not eternal, the world is limited, the world is not limited, the soul and body is one, the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death, the Thus Gone is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death?

14. “Vaccha, the wandering ascetics of other sects reflect, matter as oneself or a material self, or in self matter or in matter self. Reflect feelings as oneself or a feeling self, or in self feelings or in feelings self. Reflect perceptions as oneself or a perceiving self, or in self perceptions or in perceptions self. Reflect intentions as oneself or an intending self, or in self intentions or in intentions self. Reflect consciousness as oneself or a conscious self, or in self consciousness or in consciousness self. Therefore when the wandering ascetics are thus questioned they reply the world is eternal, not eternal, the world is limited, not limited, the Thus Gone One is, after death, the Thus Gone One is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death and the thus Gone One neither is, nor is not after death.

15. “Vaccha, the Thus Gone One, worthy and rightfully enlightened does not reflect, matter as oneself or a material self, or in self matter or in matter self. Does not reflect feelings as oneself or a feeling self, or in self feelings or in feelings self. Does not reflect perceptions as oneself or a perceiving self, or in self perceptions or in perceptions self. Does not reflect intentions as oneself or an intending self, or in self intentions or in intentions self. Does not reflect consciousness as oneself or a conscious self, or in self consciousness or in consciousness self. Therefore when the Thus Gone One when questioned does not declare the world is eternal, not eternal, the world is limited, not limited, the Thus Gone One is, after death, the Thus Gone One is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the thus Gone One neither is, nor is not after death.”

16. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta got up from his seat and approached venerable Mahāmoggallāna exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side.

17. Sitting on a side Vacchagotta said to venerable Mahāmoggallāna: “Good Moggallāna, is the world eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is eternal’.”

19. “Good Moggallāna, is the world not eternal?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is not eternal’.”

20. “Good Moggallāna, is the world limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is limited’.”

21. “Good Moggallā, is the world not limited?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the world is not limited’.”

22. “Good Moggallāna, is the soul and body one?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the soul and body are one”

23. “Good Moggallāna, is the soul one and the body another?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the soul is one and body another’.”

24. “Good Moggallāna, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

25. “Good Moggallāna, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

26. “Good Moggallāna, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

27. “Good Moggāllana, the Thus Gone One, is not and neither not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

28. “Good Moggallāna, for what reason do the wandering ascetics of other sects when questioned declare the world is eternal, the world is not eternal, the world is limited, the world is not limited, the soul and the body is one, the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death, the Thus Gone is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death? Good Moggallānna, for what reason does the recluse Gotama when questioned not declare the world is eternal or the world is not eternal, the world is limited or the world is not limited, the soul and body is one or the soul is one and the body another, the Thus Gone One is after death or the Thus Gone is not after death or the Thus Gone One is and is not after death or the Thus Gone One neither is nor is not after death?”

29. “Vaccha, the wandering ascetics of other sects reflect, matter as oneself or a material self, or in self matter or in matter self. Reflect feelings as oneself or a feeling self, or in self feelings or in feelings self. Reflect perceptions as oneself or a perceiving self, or in self perceptions or in perceptions self. Reflect intentions as oneself or an intending self, or in self intentions or in intentions self. Reflect consciousness as oneself or a conscious self, or in self consciousness or in consciousness self. Therefore when the wandering ascetics are thus questioned they reply the world is eternal, not eternal, the world is limited, not limited, the Thus Gone One is, after death, the Thus Gone One is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the thus Gone One neither is, nor is not after death.

30. “Vaccha, the Thus Gone One, worthy and rightfully enlightened does not reflect, matter as oneself or a material self, or in self matter or in matter self. Does not reflect feelings as oneself or a feeling self, or in self feelings or in feelings self. Does not reflect perceptions as oneself or a perceiving self, or in self perceptions or in perceptions self. Does not reflect intentions as oneself or an intending self, or in self intentions or in intentions self. Does not reflect consciousness as oneself or a conscious self, or in self consciousness or in consciousness self. Therefore when the Thus Gone One is questioned he does not declare the world is eternal, not eternal, the world is limited, not limited, the Thus Gone One is, after death, the Thus Gone One is not after death, the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, the thus Gone One neither is, nor is not after death.”

31. “Good Moggallāna, it is surprising and wonderful how the essence, the words and even the letters of the Teacher and the disciple agree and express the same idea.

32. “Good Moggallāna, here I approached the recluse Gotama and asked this same question and the recluse Gotama explained the meaning with these same words and phrases as good Moggallāna did. Good Moggallāna, it is wonderful and surprising how the words phrases and even the letters of the Teacher and disciple agree does not disagree anywhere.”

 

43. 1. 9
(9) Kutuhalasālā –– The Common Room

1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: “Good Gotama, one day a long time ago in the past many recluses and Brahmins and many wandering ascetics of various faiths when sitting in the common room this conversation arose among them.

4. “This Purana Kassapa, who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away too, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here.

5. “This Makkhali Gosala too who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away too, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here.

6. “This Nigaṇṭa Nāthaputta too, who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away too, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here.

7. “This Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta too, who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away too, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here.

8. “This Pakuddha Kaccayāna too, who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away too, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here.

9. “This Ajitha Kesakambala too, who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away too, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here.

10. “This recluse Gotama too, who has a large gathering and many followers, the teacher of the gathering, considered by many as a famous and good ford maker, when his disciples passed away, he declared their births, this one is born there and this one is born here. About his disciples the great men, who had attained excellence and the highest ideal, when they passed away he did not declare their births, this one is born there or this one is born here. Yet he declared they destroyed craving, turned from the bonds and rightfully understanding measuring made an end of unpleasantness.

11. “Good Gotama, doubts and logical reasoning arose in me as to how I could know and experience the Teaching of the recluse Gotama?”

12. “Vaccha, it is suitable that you should doubt and reason logically. When you doubt, you reason out logically. Vaccha, with holding I point out birth, no birth without holding.

13. “Vaccha, just as fire burns supported by fuel, with holding there is birth, no birth without holding.”

14. “Good Gotama, when fire is thrown by the wind, it goes even further, here good Gotama what could be pointed as the supportive condition?”

“Vaccha, when fire is thrown by the wind, it goes further, there I say the wind is the supportive condition.”

15. “Good Gotama, at the time this body is laid down and the being is not born in another body, what is the supportive condition that good Gotama points to?”

“Vaccha, at the time this body is laid down and the being is not born in another body, I say the supportive condition is craving.”

43. 1. 10.
(10) Ānando –– Venerable Ānanda, or There is Self

1. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park in Isipathana in Benares.

2. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side

3. Sitting on a side the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: “Good Gotama, is there a soul?”

When this was asked the Blessed One became silent

“Good Gotama, is there no soul?”

Again the Blessed One became silent

Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta got up from his seat and went away.

4. Soon after the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta had gone away, venerable Ānanda said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, why did the Blessed One not reply when the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta asked a question?”

5. “Ānanda, if I replied ‘there is a soul’ to the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta’s question ‘is there a soul’ I would be with the recluses and Brahmins who hold the view of eternity

6. Ānanda, if I replied ‘there is no soul’ to the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta’s question ‘is there no soul’ I would be with the recluses and Brahmins who hold the view of annihilation.

7. Ānanda, if I replied ‘there is a soul’ to the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta’s question ‘is there a soul’ wouldn’t it be straightforwardly supporting knowledge ‘all thoughts lack soul.”

“That is not so, venerable sir.”

8. Ānanda, if I replied ‘there is no soul’ to the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta’s question ‘is there no soul’ Vacchagotta would be more deluded, ‘didn’t I have a soul earlier, now it isn’t!”

43. 1. 11.
(11) Sabhiyo –– Venerable Sabhiya Kaccāna

1. At one time venerable Sabhiya Kaccāna lived in a house of bricks with his relations.

2. Then the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta approached venerable Sabhiya Kaccāna, exchanged friendly greetings and sat on a side.

3. Sitting on a side the wandering ascetic Vacchagotta said to venerable Sabhiya Kaccāna: “Good Kaccāna, the Thus Gone One is, after death?”

“Vaccha, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

4. “Good Kaccāna, the Thus Gone One is not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.”

5. “Good Kaccāna, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’.”

6. “Good Kaccāna, the Thus Gone One, is not and neither not after death?”

“Vaccha, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’.”

7. “Good Kaccāna, when asked ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death, why was it said, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is, after death’.”

8. “Good Kaccāna, when asked ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death, why was it said, it is not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not after death’.

9. “Good Kaccāna, when asked, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death, why was it said, it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is and is not after death’

10. “Good Kaccāna, when asked, the Thus Gone One, is not and neither not after death, why was it said it is also not declared by the Blessed One, ‘the Thus Gone One is not and neither not, after death’

11. “Good Kaccāna, why were these things not declared by the recluse Gotama?”

12. “Vaccha, the causes and reasons with which to point out, is material, immaterial, perceptive, non perceptive, neither perceptive nor non-perceptive have altogether and completely ceased without anything remaining so with what is he to be pointed material, immaterial or perceptive, non-perceptive or neither perceptive nor non-perceptive?”

13. “Kaccāna, how long have you gone forth?”

“Friend, not long, three rains.”

14. “Friend, he that has seen so much in such a short time, he must have seen a lot. There are no doubts, he must have gone beyond!”